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Rank: Newbie
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Location: romford
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hi everyone
i am a long standing diesel fan, im a london taxi driver and drive a toyota powered metrocab and ive owned diesel cars for years mostly citroens so i thought i knew most of the normal problems but my dads 1997 ford mondeo diesel estate has developed a problem that im stumped by.
the car has 120000 miles on the clock and until recently ran perfectly, it then overnight developed a problem when starting from cold in the morning, it starts on the button but then runs very roughly producing lots of white smoke until it has warmed up (5-10 mins) when it then runs fine for the rest of the day. here is a list of the things we have done and checked so far.
4 new glow plugs fitted, also checked out of the engine to make sure all ok
4 new injectors fitted, i used to work for ford so had them lying in the shed.
replaced the airflow meter with one sourced from the breakers
new fuel filter and fuel lines fitted
new air filter fitted
when starting the car we have cracked the fuel line to each individual injector one at a time to try and determine if one cylinder isnt firing when cold, the car reacted to each fuel line indicating that its running on 4 cylinders even though its running roughly.
the car is losing no water and we have checked the header tank for pressure when cold = nothing.
the car uses no oil and runs fine once warm and continues too all day its just the early morning initial start.
i have even tried manualy pumping the diesel before the initial start to see if its draining back overnight but the pump feel solid first thing, my dad is convinced it is an electronic problem but im not familiar with what electronic controls the car has.
lastly the pump has 2 cables, the throttle cable and another which i presume is a cold start choke arrangement? this heads off to the offside inner wing where it goes into what looks like a electric servo mechanism, we think this is working as when the car is reved when rounning roughly this cable appears to move and pull the pump arm.
the car isnt worth spending a fortune on but its really getting my dad down as the car is fine once warm but he cant live with it as it is a he can no longer trust the car when going away etc
any suggestions will be gratefully recieved and tried
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Rank: Advanced Member
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It sounds like the glowplugs aren't supplying the post start heating that a cold engine needs. Measure the voltage across the glowplugs during the start and then immediately afterwards. On some cars it stays at the same voltage for a few minutes, on others it's a reduced voltage but either way there should be something.
The other thing I can think of is that the timing isn't being retarded while it's cold. I'm afraid I don't know enough about Fords to go any further than that.
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
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Rank: Newbie
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Thanks for the advice its another thing to check ill post the results when ive done it, another thing worth mentioning is that my mum told me today my dad has a habit of not refueling the car until his diesel light comes on, personally i never let it get this low, but im wondering if dirt or water has somehow got somewhere in the fuel system and is causing the problem, as ive previously mentioned we have replaced the fuel filter and plastic push on fuel lines but could this have affected anywhere else? i took the car for a long drive today to see for myself and although it does run fine when warm it did a couple of times feel retarded when below 2000 rpm as if it was being held back?? but this would then clear and the car would feel fine again, the only time you can garantee it runs like a dog is the 1st 5-10 minutes after starting even though there is no problem actually getting it to start.
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t4xy wrote:Thanks for the advice its another thing to check ill post the results when ive done it, another thing worth mentioning is that my mum told me today my dad has a habit of not refueling the car until his diesel light comes on . I think you hit the nail on the head there. One of the lads at at work would insist on driving till the fuel light came on in his new at the time Escort just as he had done in his old Cavalier, even though I`d told him over and over about all the `shite` that would be sucked of the bottom of the tank and would evenually give him problems. It did, starting problems which were eventually and I mean eventually, after a lot of investigation/expense, cured by the fiittng of a new diesel pump. Needless to say I`ve warned my oldest daughter about the perils of running with the fuel light on in her `new` P reg A4 1.9tdi as she always did in her petrol BMW. Back to your dads car, I would change the fuel filter and run some `Dry Fuel` and Injector cleaner through as the first steps and see how it goes.
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Is there a fuel pump near the fuel tank and how easy is it to get it out? On my Citroens there's a combined pump and fuel level sender unit. The pickup has a filter on the end and a glance at this should tell you if you have a problem there. Mines easy to get out - it's under the rear seat!
Having said that I don't think that even if there is a crud problem that it would only affect the cold start running. White smoke is generally a sign of water getting into the combustion chamber. It could be the start of a head gasket problem...
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
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PaulR wrote:. White smoke is generally a sign of water getting into the combustion chamber. It could be the start of a head gasket problem... Well I`ll have to say that was my first thought Paul, but the OP did say the car isn`t losing any coolant but I think if it has a pressure test they may find it has a hairline crack in the head between water ports.
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The only other thing that I found to give white smoke was years ago when I was in the motor trade with a company that specialised in MGs.
On some MGBs there was a brake servo fitted to reduce the pedal effort. It was the direct type which meant that the brake fluid went through the servo itself. If the diaphragm in the servo failed then it would sometimes suck a load of brake fluid into the inlet manifold. Brake fluid is a glycol and when it went into the combustion chamber you'd get absolute loads of white smoke!
None of the servos are direct any more. Not since tandem brake master cylinders were introduced. It was cheaper to use an indirect servo, which went between the pedal and the master cylinder, rather than two separate indirect servos. There was an export MGC which had two brake servos but that really was the exception to the rule!
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
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Rank: Advanced Member
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PaulR wrote:
On some MGBs there was a brake servo fitted to reduce the pedal effort. It was the direct type which meant that the brake fluid went through the servo itself. If the diaphragm in the servo failed then it would sometimes suck a load of brake fluid into the inlet manifold. !
Yeah I`ve heard of that before and certainly not exclusive to MGBs.
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Thanks for all the suggestions, ive had time to investigate myself and i think im on top of the problem now, trouble is i dont know how to prove it or if i can do anything about it other than changing the whole diesel pump.
After trying all sorts of checks and proving all the normal faults like glow plugs, air, poor compression etc were not to blame i was litterally pulling my hair out, i then came up with the brain wave of asking my mechanic who overhauls my london taxi to have a look on the assumption that working with diesels everyday would be a good start, it hadnt even crossed my mind to ask him as he only works on cabs , doh!
im not saying he's right but everything he said makes sense, here is his diagnosis which took him about 10 seconds after i told him all the checks i had already done
cold start advance!!
thats why all the smoke (which i have been informed is grey not white) he said, being a pessimist i said it cant be, (the car has a 1995 lucas pump with the cable type cold start advance) it all works you can see the advance lever moving back and fro when reved and ive even tried pulling and pushing the lever manually when its cold and running like a dog to no effect.
This is where he looked really smug and said " it dont mean the pumps actually advancing though does it"
apparently its a common fault on cabs, the pump develops an internal fault like a broken spring and although it appears to all work on the outside it isnt doing the job. what can i do i said, does it start he replied? "yes"
"then live with it, it will soon be spring and you will forget all about it"
this left me feeling happy and dejected at the same time, the car isnt worth much but is a good motor and my dad loves it, he would love to fix it but if i go down the breakers and get another pump who's to say it wont have the same problem.
thanks again, i would appretiate comments positive or negative.
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Timing was my second suggestion. I'm with your mechanic - if you can live with it then that's the cheapest option!
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
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is it possible to "play" with the timing when running like you can on a petrol by loosening the distributor and giving a tweak in either direction?
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Rank: Advanced Member
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On older cars with a mechanical pump then it's certainly possible to change the timing by slackening the mounting bolts and rotating the pump body a bit. The problem is that you might end up moving the problem from just at a cold start-up to all the time except that!
As I get older I think a lot about the hereafter - I go into a room and then wonder what I'm here after.
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